Grades vs. Clips

I am a working journalist teaching reporting to juniors and seniors at the Cronkite School at Arizona State University. Do any of you have thoughts I could share with my students about how you wieght grades vs. clips with entry-level reporting applicants? I, of course, would rather see clips than straight A's. But I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Terry Greene Sterling, Arizona State University

As a rough benchmark, strong clips outweigh high grades. With that said, an "ideal" combination would be say a 3.5+ GPA with a range of clips showing multiple examples of features as well as spot news with some business news and editorial writing thrown in for good measure.
Debbie Wolfe, St. Petersburg Times

I'm with Debbie on this one. I'm not about to say grades don't matter (I tried this once in college with my father and still have the limp to prove it). What I really care about is can you write and with what kind of range? Maybe this puts me in the same lot as a college football coach. He doesn't care what you think of Proust. Only that you can run the 40 in 5.9. That said, a nice GPA also shows me, right or wrong, an interest in learning - something this business will forever require of you.
Robert Bell, News & Record, Greensboro, N.C.

I weigh experience (college and/or newspaper), then clips (three to five examples), then grades, then journalism-related activities. Good writing takes discipline, and good grades are a sign of that discipline. However, they aren't the only indicator. Students who have worked for a college newspaper and/or a weekly or daily newspaper also show me that they are striving for the necessary experience.
Joe Hight, Daily Oklahoman

I would convey this message to your students: Think in terms of job-related competencies, as employers do. Clips are a reflection of the person's ability to report and write. Grades reflect only what a person can do in a classroom setting. Involvement in the student paper, stringer work for local papers, that first do-everything job at a small paper, anything that builds basic competencies is resume gold.

In all the time I've recruited and hired, grades were never a factor. The only time a student's academic history seemed relevant is when it included some extra knowledge -- say a minor in economics -- that could help inform what they do.
Michael Roberts, The Arizona Republic

I loved the kids who worked 70 hours a week for the school newspaper, were stringers for a daily and who blew off classes and struggled to get a 2.0. They had hundreds of clips.

Then, a recruiter from KR pointed out that the student's "job" is to go to class and study. The newspaper and the stringing are extra activities. The KR recruiter wondered if they blew off class to go cover the college football game, would they also blow off the Red Cross press release as an intern, or an obit on a 90-year-old woman to try for something bigger.

It made me think.

There has to be a balance. If they did a neat story on the school president's press conference, but to do it blew off an economics class, and a world history class, how far will they go at your newspaper when you want them to work on a story about a local business having problems with the foreign exchange rate, or need them to write about the history of the problems in the Mideast?

It also raises the issue of whether journalism is a profession or a trade. Do you need college at all, or can you simply train by writing lots of stories?
Jim Clark, Orlando magazine

I hire a variety of candidates each year, but I believe the strongest are those whose work has demonstrated journalistic skill, general intelligence, curiosity, a work ethic, initiative and leadership. I don't use a score sheet, but the best people have these skills or traits and were chosen because they exhibited them. How to exhibit them? A blend of three ways: work experience, strong academic performance and extracurriculars that demonstrate leadership/initiative. When I find someone whose experience stands on all three, then I also know I have someone who can juggle well and who likely has a good work ethic.

I am curious about a student's grades, of course (I also teach a class), but I never ask in campus interviews for grade point averages. I am afraid that, as they talk to each other about "what did the recruiter ask?" that question may imply that grades matter most. I do not want people quitting the newspaper and other activities to nudge a 3.2 to a 3.4.

Long term, I think, we will find that students who have a healthy balance among their responsibilities (newsroom and classroom) and other activities (extracurriculars, another job, friends) will be the healthiest journalists, too.
Joe Grimm, Detroit Free Press

While I come down on the side of clips, I'd like to add a couple of thoughts.

Grades: Has anyone heard of "grade inflation"? Truly, the GPA is not what it used to be and you might look favorably on someone with a 3.2 only to find out that was the average for the graduating class or even below. Even Harvard suffers from grade inflation. I think it's a reflection of a larger problem in society and I'm just glad my daughters are in their 30s and missed it. Of course, I don't know what it portends for my five grandchildren.

Clips: I base this on my experience with only one student-run newspaper at one public university, but clips can be more revealing than students realize. Collegiate copy editors miss routine grammatical errors or miss unanswered questions--and the writer is none the wiser, thinking s/he has a good clip. On top of that, the headline writer gets it wrong. Clips tell a hiring editor a lot more than just what the individual is like, but also what his/her newspaper was like.

I used to point out to my students that even if they had a good story under a lousy head, a hiring editor would wonder about the reporter's overall experience at that newspaper. I also remember an editor of a major newspaper close to the owner of this list saying years ago that he hired only the editors of college newspaper. If he knew what I knew about the process, he wouldn't have been so sure. I've helped make that decision for a decade and sometimes it comes down to the stronger of two weak candidates.

Furthermore: Some of my best students have avoided the student newspaper route and earned well deserved high GPA's. I spent many of my recent years teaching feature writing and the good students were the ones who went back and did more reporting and dug deeper and tried to fashion a narrative non-fiction story because they had the time to learn and were not bogged down with the clips race. The students at the college paper didn't have the time to work on their stories because they could publish anything they wanted that night at the student daily, even if it wasn't any good and they didn't care what I thought. They had their clips.

Conclusion: In retirement, I'm freelancing and I put my stories on my web site. No one has yet to ask me for a transcript. I make it a point to direct editors to clips.

Clips tell me a lot more than GPA, but if someone showed up with a high GPA and graded classroom assignments and no clips, I'd certainly put that person high on my list. And while I don't think anyone mentioned this, good references from tough profs mean a lot too.
R. Thomas Berner, Professor emeritus of journalism and American studies, The Pennsylvania State University

I seem to be the only student journalist on the listserve so I feel compelled comment this topic. As a student journalist, I depend on professionals like those on this list to learn how to make the transition from the classroom to the newsroom. That's why I didn't respond right away. I also wanted to think about why this topic upset me. Maybe I was upset because the posts I read tell me there is no system. It all depends on the recruiter I get. Which supports my experience with recruiters because I've stumbled across a few who were very supportive, patient and good listeners. I've also been to professional journalism conferences and had recruiters laugh in my face, ignore me or throw my clips away as I stood in front of them. I guess recruiters are like any other human resources official, some are good and some are bad. If we want the internship, we have to get past the lion at the gate.

Grade inflation: All I know is that I, and other student journalists like me, work hard for our GPAs (it's 4.0 by the way). We don't blow off class to cover a meeting or to write a story. In my newsroom if a reporter misses class for a story (or uses that as an excuse to miss class) the story gets cut and I note it in their mid-semester staff evaluation. It's as serious as missing a deadline.

Clips: I agree that clips reveal, on many levels, a student's experience in the newsroom. However, like in professional newsrooms, most student journalists have little control over inaccurate or misspelled headlines, poor accompanying photos/graphics, illogical layout, bad editors or bad newsroom managers. I've never been asked what I learned from a bad story or a bad editor. Those are some of my best lessons. Sure, our clips may be rough but the reporting is often solid. Simply getting the article published is an accomplishment.

In addition, many students never learn how to assemble a clip file. I've learned by asking, trial and error, or looking at other intern's clips. Our colleges are lucky to have basic newswriting courses -- forget media ethics, newsroom management or internships. Granted, some of our clips lack quality but we simply cannot spend all our time reporting. We are students first. Many of us have other part or full time jobs in addition to our duties in the newsroom. For some, being a journalist is second or third on the list.

Grades: I've worked with and hired students who, given enough time in their courses, assembled a mountain of information for a terrific feature. But for me, reading their clips and graded papers is just as deceiving as reading a clip that an editor reworked. Why? Because most have never worked in a newsroom as part of the team -- and they can't meet a deadline to save their lives or the paper's.

For me, the heart of this discussion is about balance, as many of you mentioned in previous posts. That's what I'm taking away from this discussion and that's what I will pass on to my staff.
Miguel M. Morales, The Campus Ledger, Johnson County Community College

Miguel's thoughtful posting prompts this comment and question:

• He's right on target in saying that a well-crafted class assignment isn't the same as an article published in a college newspaper. I'd go for the clips anytime. With clips, you get someone who has weathered a newsroom in its bad times as well as its good.
• The question: Does your newspaper hire people for permanent newsroom positions who don't have degrees? I'm a strong believer in the need for both clips (experience) and degree, tho high GPA doesn't say as much as some people want it to. A degree may or may not be an indicator of ability. Nevertheless, completing a degree, to me, shows that the person sticks with things even when they're mundane and even when the topic may not actually interest the person, or, as one editor said to me recently when considering hiring an ex-student of mine who doesn't have a degree: Getting a degree shows that a person can stick to a schedule.

Lloyd Goodman, University of Texas at Arlington

Lloyd's thoughtful posting nudges me into the discussion in defense of the
unschooled.

A college degree certainly means that a person sticks with things. But like any blanket requirement, while it makes your decisionmaking easier, it might cause you to miss other good hires.

Since the time when I dropped out of college to be the reporter in Warrensburg, Missouri, I have stuck with a few investigative projects. (And, of less note, taught journalism at the graduate level at Maryland, Northwestern and Boston U.)
Bill Dedman, PowerReporting.com

A few months ago, I invited several of the St. Petersburg Times summer interns to come to Poynter to speak to the students in our high school program.

The interns had the same regret about their college years: that they didn't challenge themselves enough, either by taking tougher courses or by learning another language. It was sad to hear.

It's important to advise every young person to make the most of the academic opportunities they get in college. There should be some subject that engages their curiosity and passion. There should be some class that stretches their critical thinking skills, the same skills that editors say they want in journalists. If they haven't found anything like that yet, they should look harder.

Except for the lucky few who get mid-career fellowships, college is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. We should encourage every student to take advantage of it.
Evelyn Hsu, The Poynter Institute

As always Evelyn Hsu has captured the essence of the issue. It's not whether someone goes to college or doesn't. It's what they make of their college years. Did they take an economics course and learn the difference between net and gross, or is their first newspaper going to have to run a correction? Did they take a religion course to help them explain a wide variety of issues? Do they think that a gerund is a furry little animal?
Jim Clark, Orlando magazine